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Nick Nostitz’s blog here seems to be a fair coverage explaining what happened in October 7.
But he didn’t mention several evidences appearing after the event, proven of polices’ lies and lots of hoax on the Internet. So I put my comment here to summarize in case that my comment on his blog has not been approved
And I would like to apologize for my port English. it was quickly written.
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Thank you for your fair coverage about this.
Slingshot yes, golf club yes, heavy stick yes, but up till now. There is not even a single picture proving that PAD has a firearm or an explosive. However, there are more evidences coming out all the time that Police or anti-PAD kept on lying.
Hoax 1 - The Man was using an artificial leg
Hoax 1: The man has no leg before and he use the red juice to lie to people that his leg was cut during an incident. This is a hoax. Already proven. This guy is serious injured in the same time still trying to protect the woman behind him. The news just don’t show the picture before his legs was flipped under uncut part..
Hoax 2 - He was holding a home-made bomb in his left hand
Hoax 2: The guy sit crossing his legs have something in his left hand that look like a ping pong bomb, but on his right hand is seriously injured. This is also a hoax. This guy is a street artist who worked to feed his family of 2 young children. He drew a portrait in the protest area for 100THB each. The doctor who took care of him already confirm that he was holding a leather key ring. Now.. his left hand is cut of, his windpipe is seriously damaged .. that seems he won’t be able to speak for the rest of his life.
Stupid Hoax 3: Before the police admitted that it was a police who holding a gun. Thai police spoke man said that it was someone who dress up like a police. And now, the police said that he was trying to shoot a 4wd Cherokee crashing into police. This is also a lie. You can see a video clip on youtube. The 2 incidents happen in different occasion. That policeman really point a gun to protester and stopping when his fellow policeman shout “Camera!”, funny .. that he also said he is a driver that he needs to protect special mob breaking equipment so he is permitted to carry a gun.
Read more about this hoax
Bad Hoax 4: The police spokeman said that the lady who died may nipping an explosion with her. (carrying between arm and chest). but the doctor already stated.. that the wound is so serious. It caused from the impacting with a very hot item from in front of her chest. (Her whole chest was gone)… The lady who died graduated from the Assumption University. Her whole family joined a PAD campaign. She has a plan to marry next year.
Read more about this fact
Shotgun is fired
Fact 1: The police use a shotgun shooting from inside the parliament.. this clip can be found from a youtube.. It has been recorded by Euronews camera man.
Read more about this fact
Fact 2: It is true that there was a mini truck crashing into a police and hurt some of policeman. But you should understand that this happen after the bloodshed incident in the early morning. The protesters really have nothing else to protect themselves.. And the leader can’t control this. People with anger have to decide to do something.. not just being done by brutal police alone.. I didn’t say this is a right thing to do… but you should try to understand the whole incident as well.
Fact 3: Police didn’t follow standard mob breaking procedure. They don’t negotiate, they don’t use a loud speaker. They don’t come in with their club and shield.. They just started firing/throwing a tear gas bomb and some identified explosive grenade. This is heard from several medical team who worked in the area. The police also fired at a medical team as well. The guy fell over and stood up again trying to continue his help other people. Most importantly, the use Border Patrol Police instead of a city police that has been trained how to control riot (as in year 2006)
Read more about this fact
Police Happy Face
Fact 4: Some police fired at PADs like they gonna win a Counter Strike or such (so happy face).
Observation 1: Any bloodshed incidents in the Thailand history, there is no single person responsible for this (e.g. sent to jail). And I think Police think that they can get away with this again like in the past.
This is a fair coverage, but you should also report the after event. what have been found and covered.
Please visit my web site for the evident mentioned here.
UPDATES – 13 OCTOBER 2008
I would like to apologize you, Nick. I have seen one PAD using a firegun on a video clip. I am investigating it now.
One PAD is found using a firegun.
4WD Toyota was running over a police.
About the loud speaker, people who are at the parliament in the early morning confirmed that they didn’t hear anything from the Police. Majority of people in parliament area on October 7 morning are women. They were sleeping and waked up by a sound of a bomb. There was at least one young PAD (student) trying to negotiate with the police, but the police didn’t stop and just kept on firing continuously. Really, they didn’t expect the police to use tear gas from the start just expected to push and pull, or the worst police was expected to use a stick.
In some occasions, the police fired or(threw) one set in front of PADs, and another set to behind PADs like they didn’t want people to escape. This is also what really happened
One person at a discussion forum confirmed that they noticed one mobile equipped with a loud speaker but it was so far away from the crackdown area and the speaker is so small. (It is the one that used for Maha Songkarn Festival)
I will get back to you more on an update. Nobody, will hurt you and your family, Nick. You shouldn’t worry about that. Please just report on the fact.
Sorry for my poor English.
UPDATES – 14 OCTOBER 2008
Now should be a time for reflection, and not for agitation.
Nick, you are right about this. But many people didn’t think like you. Thai Police should have done that quickly right after the crackdown and this is why PADs tried to reclaim casualties’ reputation back, and this is why my poor English web site is here at least trying to do such purpose.
They should have accepted that the war weapon was used in the crackdown. The spontaneous firing from inside the police HQ in the evening which instantly killed one fine lady shouldn’t have happened. But what Thai Police did? They told the press that it was possible for the Thai lady to carry a bomb with her which killed herself. Not counting those pro-Thaksin on the internet that kept on trying to twist the story whenever they can.
And after everything is too late, the chief police ordered two barking police officers to keep their mouth sealed and expressed “deep sorry and apologize” just a day before a national police day (13 Oct), but what for the prime minister? He said “sorry” and continue his bullshit on the latest NBT TV program on the same day.
And what is now? The Queen and her daughter came by themselves to the cremation funeral. The highest honor (first-time in the history?) that a normal civilian family have got such honor..
Who arrange such a military-grade weapon should be responsible and sent to jail. Who fired at people like they intend to kill should be sent to jail. Who ordered the police to do such thing when knowing by heart what would be happening should also be condemned for the rest of their life and sent to jail.
PAD who shot at the police (if he is really a PAD not 3rd party disguised as PAD) should also be responsible for the crime he did unless he can proof that he did that to protect his life or someone else life.. (however carrying a gun around like that is still illegal)
The same rule apply to the Toyota’s case , where a possible driver is now at the hospital and loss one of his eye during the crackdown..And like you said “that needs a long investigation by qualified authorities.” something that Thai people (not just PAD) always wish but hardly come true.
Here is the answer you need, Nick! (UPDATE 12/NOV)
Here is the answer you need, Nick – The report from National Human Rights Commission
Is PAD interested in reconciliation, or only in “victory”?
Dear Nicks
I am sure they do, even some PAD leaders, they really think about that, but what have happened so far is the government has not been frank to them. Please read this article “Ten Most Popular Questions which PADs are bored answering“. I have done my best to translate it to English some weeks ago. And then look at the ugly cabinet. Look at the policy of renting national park. Look at the 6,000 bus project. Look at how the proxy government do nothing with the lese majesty web sites on the Internet. Most importantly look at Somchai’s face on latest announcement in NBT.
…
It is very important that majority of PAD protesters really believe in peaceful demonstration, that’s why they join the protest from the first place. There are several ocassions that PAD leaders changed their decision to avoid a clash with the red shirt. If they really believed in violence, they should have encouraged PAD to confront with the red shirts. There are a SantiAsoke and a Thai monk giving a dhama talk for the protesters. There are concerts, Chinese opera, Poetry Performing, and other Art Performing. Have you ever seen a protest like this in other countries? This is why there are more and more people joining the campaign. As you said, several parents took an infant child with them, some took a pet. Didn’t they do it because they thought the place was safe for their children? Protesting had been very peaceful until the anti-PAD group marching down the street (didn’t they look drunk to you?) trying to start a war. I am sure you can now notice less children after the police crackdown. Because some parents realize that it wasn’t safe for their kids anymore, but they still do support by donation, or praying for their fellow PADs. You can find lots of interesting to write about the red shirts too (have you ever done so?)You mentioned that you have talked to some polices after the event. Probably, you may try to find some PADs to speak with as well. I believe there are many people wanted to talk with you, express their feeling about why they were there. I was in the back line seeing many people joining and joining including a mature man in shirts and slacks (like those people from Silom) Why they have to do this and that. and I really believe they think that the decision to besiege the parliament on October 6,7 is the right decision. I do think so. Even someone in the Somchai’s cabinet was thinking to change the announcement place, some said it was ok to postpone. But some hardcore in the government still insisted to go on, you can further investigate on this. (Look up for Dr.Pornthip interview). There were also some PAD thinking that they should occupy the parliament like what PAD did when occupying the government house. But the PAD leader don’t want to do that. Ekayuth Anchanbuth of thaiinsider.com mentioned that PAD leader was waiting a military coup but it is also not true. He also suggested that the moment of people revolution has passed (he thought the result would have been better if PAD really occupied the parliament)
You shouldn’t underestimate the heart power of PAD. Although some of PADs were in doubt about Sondhi for example. Some even disliked him. But they thought that this was only the last chance to do something before they couldn’t do anything at all. The way they kept joining the campaign more and more even they knew that it was no longer safe. Even though they know that they can get hurt, they can become disabled… Don’t you know why they keep on joining? Being mass brain washed? I would repeat this again. They thought it is their last chance to fight for the righteousness, fight for their kings and queens, fight for their country, fight for their descendants. I don’t know if this is still categorized under the political subject, but it is more likely to be the life matter for PAD now. Do you know what the dead lady spoke shortly before the moment of her death?
This may sound like another PAD propaganda, I really don’t mean to.. I just want to show respect to those PAD with pure heart. Let the story be heard by the rest of the world. And the time will heal, people will hopefully be judged for what they did.
Unknown shooter hanging terminated or faked PAD’s id card (UPDATE 19/NOV)
 Mysterious shooter from inside of Dusit Zoo |
Same guy caught on a camera running |
The senator’s committee for investigation the incident on October 7 reports today (19 Nov) that they have several reasons to believe that this mysterious shooter who caught firing a gun disguised as one of PAD guard.
He was hanging the seem-to-be out-of-date PAD Guard ID card
|
The PAD Guard ID Card Revision 4 Comparing between Revision 3 and Revision 4 |
This PAD Guard ID card is the third revision and was terminated on September 24, and the new one was reissued.The reasons are:
The new one have been issued and used since September 24 He was hanging the out of date ID card |
Mr. Chana Phasuksakul is responsible for issuing a new card. He also maintains a record telling when the new card was issued and other information about each PAD guard, including name, profile, picture, a copy of their national ID cards. and the area of responsibility.
All the cards are signed by the PAD Volunterring Guard Leader Mr. Kittichai Saisa-ard
The PAD guard have several rules and restiction.
(I am lazy to translate it) If you like I can quickly do that.
He was wearing simlar clothes to PAD, however such clothes could be easily obtained by anyone so it can’t be used as an evidence to say he is PAD.
|
Similar clothes... Logo on his clothes are not clear enough to match it with the original clothes |
Similar clothes The original clothes have the word “STAFF” on the right of a PAD logo. |
Partly translated from Manager Online
‘amberwave’ just attacked me on the Nick’s blog. (UPDATE 20/NOV)
amberwaves // Nov 19, 2008 at 11:03 pm
>There is a new update about the mysterious man caught on camera shooting from inside the Dusit Zoo.
OK, I have to say it: this is one of the silliest posts I’ve ever seen here.
Vorapoap. You are a fool. The PAD need muscle to keep their activities on track. They openly carry mostly homemade weapons such as iron bars, and some carry guns. There are numerous witnesses, and some of the guards themselves admit it privately.
The tactic of denying someone is a PAD guard every time he gets caught doing something bad is transparent. You’ll recall that Suriyasai originally denied that the seven dozen people who took over NBT were from the PAD, a fiction that was hard to sustain after they were arrested.
With occasional exceptions, the PAD guards have gotten a fairly free ride in the Thai media. How often do you see mention of the man they beat to death in the September 2 clash with the DAAD? Did you watch any video of that night? Please spare me any rhetoric about the non-violent PAD.
You are totally wasting your time. Your guys aren’t saints, get over it.
Here is my reply (w more info/correcting typo)
amberwave, I just reported what I know from Manager.co.th in a shorter poorer English version for an update on event on October 7. I haven’t concluded anywhere yet that this mysterious man is PAD or not. -Frankly-, I don’t care.. even though, one day the truths reveal that he was really a PAD. He or those carried arms around and hurt other people will be condemned. Not different from those Police who hurt many people.
Here are two reports for October 7 from the National Human Rights Commission
And not different from whoever who kept firing a bomb into the government house. Do you know? Around 3-4am today, another bomb dropped inside the government house area. BangkokBizNews reports “in front of PAD stage”.. over 10 injuries.
Around 5am “1 just reported DEAD” from the stage.
PAD is guilty to commit a crime on acquiring a government house area and block several road, disturbing other people.
Another bomb exploded inside government house, over 10 injuries - One is reported dead
A hole on the tent roof... now what?... asteroid?
But no one is legitimate to fire a bomb or kill anyone by that.
No need to mention about government’s current wrong doingsSae-dang just spoke to the press that he doesn’t care anymore if his daughter (who live in the next room in the same house) will die in the PAD protesting area. What kind of person is this?
Admit it, everyone is just a normal person. We are not saints.. And no one here (on that site – New Mandala) is.
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Thanks a lot for vorapoap’s sincere and hard working upon exposing the facts particularly openmindness to accept Nick Nostitz’s blog. However, I have some serious doubts and comments on his work as follow and already post in Nick’s blog.
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http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/2008/10/11/what-happened-on-7102008/#comment-569356
1. The warnings with loudspeakers remain disputable from PAD side. Moreover, the police did not negotiate first. Unlike dealing with Cambodian. Perhaps we do not speak the same language!!!
However, the police constituted of three events, early morning, afternoon and the evening one. The reporter was not present at all sites, at all times. He was present at 6:00 am first raid.
Obviously, the police did not warn for the shooting in the evening when protesters were marching back to the government house and Miss Angkana was killed.
2. Does Nick Nostitz speak Thai? If he does certainly he may understand what he wrote about the police’s warning.
3. Nick Nostitz report does confirm that initially there was no violence by the PAD side and that there was at least a friend of him being a police-undercover hiding among the protesters in PAD side. (by which a conspired situation might have been created )
4. Nick Nostitz admitted that he was not an expert of firearms. How could he concluded that the police may not have other choice to deal with the situation? Has he ever known, apart from the Tien An Men / China (where they used military weapons and tanks) where in the world that the police had dealt with mobs and ended in lost of 2 lives (3 more critical) from police tear gas firing, 400 injured, immediately lost of legs, arms, hands and eyes.
5. Would he know that the police violated the standard guidelines of tackling riots that is to use stepwise application of riot combat measures from soft to harsh, before firing the first tear gas canister.
Perhaps those loud speaker lorries definitely used very effectively to disturb the rally before at Makkawan bridge or strong water cannon from firefighter trucks could have dispersed the crowd.
Later, if failed, rows of police in full riot gears with their shields and clubs could have pushed the protesters away like when they used before with UDD riots 2 years ago in front of the President of the Privy Council house and on August 29, 2008. By using the police troops, they could have pushed the protesters far enough to pave way for the MPs and the PM without a single drop of blood.
6. Would Nick Nostitz know that particular types of firearms are not to be used for city riots. Automatic rifles and .357 pistols were seen and recorded on VDOs and photos at the scene together with border police troops and special execution Arintharaj antiterrorist units which have been trained to kill rather than to deal softly with mobs. Obviously, they fired directly to the crowd. Initially, some shots chopped off big bushes or blew up the piles of car tyres straight away could have warned the police from the very beginning to stop using such dangerously fatal firearms. However, perhaps Nick Nostitz was not at the right spot to have seen the blast effects avulsing people’s limbs or he was so badly affected by the tear gas so much that he did not notice the direction of the barrels of the police rifles aiming directly to the crowd and the executional shots which the police aimed.
7. Nick Nostitz confirmed that apart from “a few” pistols claimed to be shot from PAD, other weapons which PAD might have, were makeshift and not well organized (for self protection against outlaw red UDD because police had several times ignored UDD’s attacks on PAD) are not comparably effective in killing as to those police’s automatic weapons. Would Nick Nostitz know that the police did not arrest any of protesters for such illegal possession of weapons? Were the police ordered just to shoot-to-kill?
8. Nick Nostitz said at the beginning “In this post I will try to describe what I saw, and how I felt about what was happening. I do not have any sense of an overview, and nor do I claim to.” However, he decided differently at the end to conclude with his lack-of-overview and sore-eyes opinions “In this showdown PAD has used lethal force and if the police did not use teargas then this situation would have degenerated to hand-to-hand combat. And that, I am sure, would have cost many people their lives, on both sides.”
How could he make a reasonable conclusion if he does not see the overall on-going escalation of the violence against PAD as carried out by tyrant puppet governments under Thaksin. The police was tactically successful when raided on PAD with hand-to-hand combat with clubs and shields and had torn down PAD’s stage on Rajdamnoen Avenue without firing a single shot before on August 29, 2008.
How could Nick innocently miss Pol.Lt.Col.Thaksin’s tricks leading to the country’s turmoils to fulfill the asylum grant? Even, on that single day Nick missed the point that it was the police who used the unneccessary lethal force first. Therefore, the laws as well as the righteousness are on neither the government nor the police side. That is why the police and PM Somchai have to be continuously twisting the words as already recorded in the media.
http://www.antithaksin.com
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The Investigation of Human Rights Protection Subcommittee under National Human Rights Commission found out that….
At 06:15 (the first police crackdown)
“Interviewing with the eyewitnesses particularly the media revealed the following. The police officers, before firing the teargas canisters to disperse the crowd at Pichai T-junction opposite the exit gate of the House of Parliament, did not give any warning to the rallying crowd.”
Same as firing at 16;00 and 19:00
The subcommittee also concluded that the act of police violated human rights and laws,…….and the National Police Office and the government must be responsible for this acion.
Read the report summary here
Read the full report at http://www.AntiThaksin.com
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Latest bomb exploded in front of the PAD stage.
23 injuries, 1 is reported dead
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I am poor in English but I was on the Pichai intersection from 6-7 October I could confirm some facts.
1. The police used loudspeaker after finished their funny shots. I have sound clip for this, if anyone wants it? In that early morning, half of people waked up, all others still slept. At Pichai, people enjoyed singing/listening a song with Poojadkuan band. The singing ended when we saw the police were preparing, and five minutes later it was the big series of shots with no alarm.
2. People on Toyata clashing into police is true but that happened after full 2 hours of crazy shots by police. Police fired directly to people, to ambulance, to SOS unit. One thing that no one mentioned is that police was also firing the gun at the Toyota and trying to crash it with a big bus. To note at the Pichai on envening I didn’t see any pale monkey except those from Aljazira.
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Thank you for your comment n/e
Your English is fine, but I also tried my best to adjust some minor mistakes.
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Vorapoap thanks for your website and don’t worry too much about being attacked by Amberwaves or others on Mandala. Most of them mean well but remember it is a website for foreign ivory tower academics who tend to have an idealistic view of Thai politics based on their more positive experiences in Western democracies. Academics can be prone to academic snobbery at times too. Even though I don’t agree with many of the views on Mandala, they are usually instructional and it is good that the website exists with its offshore location and academic freedom. It is also good that you are posting an alternative view from a Thai perspective.
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Thank you for your comment, Portman..
I have read many of your comments, and I know that you understand Thailand and our situation very well.
But for the New Mandala, I don’t know much about the site but it was linking by sameskybooks.org which is known to be primary anti-royalist site. So it is quite suspicious to me. When I checked some author’s profile, they are even more suspicious.. Really do not want to think that the site was supported by pro-Thaksin’s money.
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Vorapoap, I also discovered New Mandala by chance looking for information on the police attrocities of 7th October. It does seem to be hosted by the Australian National University’s Asian Studies Dept and some of the posters who use their own names are from there, based on Google searches. The founder, who is a doctoral student at Oxford University, is an Australian and graduated from that dept at ANU. I doubt that the website or the academics need funding from Thaksin, although one can never be sure who is on his payroll these days.
It seems that farang Asian studies academics based at foreign universities and foreign journalists overseas tend to be pro-Thaksin while farang university teachers, journalists and businessmen who have worked in Bangkok for many years tend to be squarely anti-Thaksin. He should be delighted that he has successfully divided farangs as well as his own people. Fortunately academics specializing in the narrow field of Asian studies are not at all influential in farang societies but journalists are.
Anyway the tide of overseas farang opinion seems to have turned against Thaksin. When he was first in the UK and bought Man City he was given the benefit of the doubt but after they got to know him better he was regarded as just another very clever foreign crook like his pal, Mohammed Fayed, and Abramovich. The British government very sensibly gave him and his “ex” the boot to avoid all the hassles and cost to the taxpayer they had with Pinochet, the former Chilean dictator, when Spain tried to extradite him from the UK to face murder charges.
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@Portman
If you read them (Mandala) for a while you will find that they are based on Capitalism. That’s why they support Thaksin and his puppet, simply because Thaksin have an image of capitalism. Member of Mandala also published or show-off stupidity against the ‘Sufficience economic’.
As far as I have read their articles I found that they keep the dream on outdated liberal democracy. So you can imgine while they support Thaksin, and what Thaksin is trying to do.
To add, do we understand that the new generation of people on the world including those in western earth is understanding ‘democracy’ as ‘A B C D’ not deep to the principle and facts.
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Very good discussion is on going here,
I believe that those farang will understand the capitalism better in a few more years to come.. Do they know that another book writen by Adam Smith “The Theory of Moral Sentiments”? hhuh.. I think they know
Here from Wikipedia:
Haakonssen adds that Theory of Moral Sentiments and Wealth of Nations “only contradict each other if Smithian sympathy is misinterpreted as benevolence and self-interest wrongly is narrowed to selfishness and then taken to be the reductive basis for all human motivation”
So I guess those academics don’t really understand the word “Selfishness” ?
Until a few years ago, the word “selfishness” was not the nature of Thai people, and we do have the word “Kreng Jai” in Thai but farangs don’t even have one.
I don’t really know how Adam Smith would categorize Thaksinomic, but I am sure that he wouldn’t like it to be part of his ideal capitalism.
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OMG! These pictures above look so gross!
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